In this episode of the Sales Transformation Podcast's Mastercast series, Phil speaks to Joanna Hillman, Director of European Development at Reed & Mackay, about her Master’s dissertation on leading cross-cultural teams.
Jo explains how her dissertation broadened her understanding of cultural nuances, and how taking these differences into account can make you a more effective communicator. She argues that cultural intelligence frameworks are underrepresented in sales training, and as teams grow increasingly global they need to feature more heavily.
Highlights include:
- [04:17] – The moment that flagged the need for better international leadership skills
- [18:43] – There are major differences between countries when it comes to communication styles
- [48:15] – Doing the master’s was a great anchor in times of uncertainty
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Connect with Joanna Hillman on LinkedIn
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Full episode transcript:
Please note that transcription is done by AI and may contain errors.
Phil: Um, well, Jo, just a huge, uh, welcome to the Sales Transformation podcast series. I know that you, you presented at GST, but it is the, the first time we've had you on the podcast, uh, to, to, to talk us through your, your final dissertation. Um. This particular podcast is, is, uh, titled Master series. So it's where we mm-hmm.
Invite people who've done a master's to come and talk through their projects. Um, in your case, the masters was completed a few years ago, so we'll get the benefit also of what's happened since. Um, but Jo, just a huge welcome to the Sales Transformation podcast. I'm so thrilled to have you. Thank you on the podcast.
Thank you. Jo, before we start, could you just tell us a little bit about your role and now what, what you were doing at the time of the dissertation that you did, uh, and what your current role is now, just so the listeners have a chance to set some sort of context.
Jo: Yes, absolutely.
So at the time I started my MBA and obviously my final dissertation, I was working for a company called CWT, who are a corporate travel company, a global company, and I was leading their sales team in the uk. An island and we actually started it, uh, I think it was March, 2020, wasn't it? When, uh, we all remember what happened in March, uh, 20, 20 20 in terms of the, uh, pandemic.
So yeah, as, uh, we, we embarked on this journey, uh, we obviously embarked. I embarked on a very difficult work journey of my own, just due to the fact that the services we deliver as an organization are. Corporate travel and as you know, travel was, uh, was not there. No. So it was an extremely difficult time and, um, you know, a, a lot of, throughout the MBA that I completed, I have to say a lot of the topics were very relevant 'cause it was about leading through change and there was a lot of change.
Um, but actually by the time we got to doing my dissertation, uh, which was on, uh, leading through and how to lead effectively across. different Cultures. By the time I got there, I kind of felt that we'd, you know, we'd written and I'd undertaken all the work I could on the pandemic. I wanted to look and push forward of actually, how do I take this as a positive?
Um, because as a result of the pandemic, I did up end up leading more than just the UK sales team. I was then looking after the Netherlands. And Belgium at the time. So I thought, how can I take this as a positive and use it in my dissertation to actually learn, not just for myself, you know, what other learnings I could take forward to the company I was working for at the time.
Uh, so that's where I was then, which was, uh, as Phil says a few years ago, uh, where I am now is I am, uh, still at a corporate. Business travel company called Rita Mackay. Um, but I'm actually leading the whole of the European sales team. So, um, actually, you know, for me the outcome of doing that dissertation has been fantastic because it's helped me get the role doing what I do today.
Uh, 'cause I now head up and look after all of Europe for sales.
Phil: That's it. It is amazing actually, I, I, I must admit, sort of catching up with you now, it's just, uh, an incredible journey you've been on. I know it seems like a long time, but actually it's not over a long. I suppose the, the, you know, uh, since 2020, I guess, when you started the, uh, the masters, you could say it's been about five years or so.
Mm-hmm. But, uh, uh, since your dissertation was handed in, in, in April. 2022. It's, uh, time, time is, you know, that's not a long time and it's amazing to see what you've achieved since then. So I'm just gonna come back to the title of your assignment. So it's how can I develop my cultural intelligence, uh, to lead my sales teams more effectively across different cultures?
And I think this, uh, topic is gonna be so relevant to so many of the listeners. So, you know, we normally start off this. With the, the question, why? Why was this particular topic of such interest to you? You know, I guess at a time you were leading the UK team, but mm-hmm. I guess emerging into a new role.
But why was it so important? What made you think you should Yes. Spend some months researching it?
Jo: Yeah, absolutely. So of course, as you've said, you know, my role had changed during that time. 'cause I took on responsibility for other countries. And I think my enlightening moment, although I'd worked in a global company for 27 years and sold in the sales team for that.
Long and dealt with colleagues globally. Uh, leading them was, was very different. And I think my defining moment was having a conversation with a salesperson from the Netherlands who are, um, you know, very famously direct saying to me, so as my leader, what are you going to do for me? So I'm going on a call to introduce myself and, uh, you know, I took a step back and I thought, well, actually yes, this is timely because I'm looking after other countries.
But you know, in terms of my future development and future, uh, ambitions to either lead a global sales team or lead a European team, um, as I'm doing today, I really need to develop my skillset here. I really need to understand how and what I need to do or adapt differently as I move forward with my, you know, my, my ambition to.
Lead a sales team globally, which is still, obviously I'm Europe at the moment, so my next step is what can I do globally, but I, let's first adapt and understand the skillset I need and learnings from obviously, uh, previous. Uh, people that I studied and, and books that I read during the dissertation, you know, what, what experiences have they had and what did they do mm-hmm.
To make sure that they were also equipped to go out there and, and make sure you can, um, lead the sales team as effectively as you can across different cultures. Yeah. Which ultimately, of course, when you're in sales, the objective of doing that is because you want 'em to be successful. Yeah, you want to, you want to have success and your overall objective is, or your overall target is you, you have a target to meet.
So how can I do that and what, what skills do I need?
Phil: It's always fascinating for me when there's perhaps one sentence or one question that triggers of train of thought. In this case, it was your Dutch, uh, colleague. Mm-hmm. Uh, it was, uh. Possibly not just the question, but the manner in which the question was yes, perhaps asked.
Mm-hmm. Yep. Uh, that, that, um, that made you, that triggered,
Jo: yes.
Phil: You know, this, this investigation and, uh, yeah, I can identify very much, uh, with, with that, but it, it, it's amazing actually, um, how. Something as simple as a question could then take you on a six month journey of research. Yes. Really deep reflection.
So you got interested in, in culture at that point, um, and wanted to explore the cultural dimensions. Can, can I just ask. What was it about that question that made you felt you wanted, you know, made you feel this was a cultural issue rather than just a. Personality issue. Yeah. You know, what, what made you, what made you think this is something bigger than just I'm dealing with a very direct person?
Jo: Yes. That that's, that's, I think that's a fair question. 'cause you always have to have that balance between somebody, how they are personally and their personality versus is it the culture. Um, and I think. It's because it, you know, I'd also had a conversation then with his colleague in the same team, same question, same directness.
And I thought, okay, you know, this isn't necessarily personality. So it was actually two questions. It was the, it was both meetings. I had both. One to ones that triggered that thought process. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it was also, I, you know, also what triggered it was the fact that. I had taken on this extra responsibility.
So I did think, okay, do, is there anything else I need to be doing? I think that really it confirmed it and cemented it that yes, this was gonna be the topic. Yeah. Um, and, but yeah, it was really that I'd taken on that additional responsibility Yeah. For those countries that I thought, I want to make sure I can, I can do this.
And I also see my ambition in the future of leading a global sales team. Yeah. So this, this is a really. Worthwhile topic to do now. Yeah. And I probably, the final part is, as we know, COVID made the world more virtual. And I could also see a world where. You know, people were not traveling to see each other face to face.
Yeah. Which is often how you keep that cultural alignment because you're meeting people in person. Yeah. But when you are leading teams virtually, yeah. You have to skill, your skillset has to be even greater, I think, because it's, it's even harder.
Phil: Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I know I, I remember sort of speaking to you at the time of the, um, pandemic and recognizing the, I just spoke about it at GST as well, you know, just, yes.
Just the enormity of, of, of, of the change and, and also. You know, difficult to say. I know you've been with CWT for many years, hadn't you? Mm-hmm. And sort of seeing the organization suffer as it as it did during that time. Yes. Um, was, uh, was quite extraordinary, but, um, but it's amazing how, you know, just the, well, I think resilience that you showed as you went through that change process in it, in its own right.
Incredibly impressive to observe. Um, but I think when we come into talking more about the dissertation, you mm-hmm. You're able to straddle both the, you know, the emerging outta the pandemic, as you said earlier, as well as where the opportunities then started, you know, where, where the business started to build back and you started to see some mm-hmm.
Sort of positive. 'cause it, you know, it's a lot of pent up demand, I think, to travel once. The, you know, the borders were reopening. Um, do you know, there's, when I, when I read your dissertation, you, you, you quote, there's someone, you get a quote, I'm, I'm not gonna challenge you on the quote, I'm going to read it out.
It was a birkinshaw quote.
Jo: Yes, I know which one you're going say, yeah, I do know which quote. Honestly, I couldn't believe it when I read it, but yes, if.
Phil: I can read it out. I've got it here on the screen.
Jo: Oh, you've got it. Yeah. Yeah.
Phil: No one knows when a deadly virus might hit us on a global scale, and unpredictability therefore creates challenges of a different nature.
And this was. Uh, this was f the, the first thing it was written by, I guess it, that's Julian Birkinshaw.
Jo: It's, yeah. Is that it's, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Phil: And so that's number one. Well, here's Julian, who I have a huge amount of respect for, you know, I've, I've cited him in my doctorate, but not about this topic. About something different.
Jo: Yeah.
Phil: So it's making me think. Bmy, he's writing about this as well. Yeah. And, uh, of course the, the uncanny, you know, sort of. Coincide, you know, coincidence that even three years after this was written, we now found ourselves Yes. In the situation that he described. Um, but you, you could have written about unpredictability.
Mm-hmm. You could have wr but you chose to explore sort of cultural change more, which, which is, which is fine. But, um, yeah, that obviously in, in a context sense. Um. Was quite, uh, an important to recognize that you did this when you were coming outta the pandemic more. And, and now with the added responsibility of the Netherlands and Belgium un under your, your wing.
Um, so. One of the questions I, I always love asking people on the masters series is, you know, as, as part of your journey, you're asked to do a review of key literature. Yes. And, uh, I know that there was some particular authors and researchers mm-hmm. That you took quite a lot of value from value. I wonder if you can just talk through who, for you have, you know, were some of the, the key influencers and, and.
And what you found interesting just through your research process.
Jo: Yes, absolutely. I think, uh, I mean, again, obviously when you get, when you look at the topic, and when I decided on the topic of leading across different cultures, there is numerous literature out there. The one I found that, that I valued the most actually was a book by a lady called Erin Mayer called The Culture Map.
And I think why, for me, that resonated the most was. The book that she had written and that she'd actually basically done a map of the different cultures and what to be aware of and how to build your skillset dependent on the culture or the country, I should say, that you were, that you were leading, she had done, uh, um, all of that really from her own.
Personal experience. And I think that's why it really resonated with me, because of course, up until then I've worked for a, in a global organization, and of course I dealt with my colleagues globally every day. I just hadn't led to them. Um, so I really felt that a lot of what I would be doing, because, you know, I've been given Belgium and Netherlands, you know, I, I would have to learn by experience, but what I liked about.
Uh, Erin Mayer's book was, um, you know, giving you that upfront view of, well, I've been there, done it, and actually probably made a few mistakes. It meant that I could equip myself with the skills, maybe not to necessarily make some of the same mistakes in terms of dealing with culture and, and how she. Did it.
And hers wasn't all around lead, obviously it wasn't around leading sales team. It wasn't all about leading, but it was, um, very much, uh, based on her, her own personal experience. And she had, she'd lived and worked in other countries as well.
Phil: Okay. So she'd lived and worked in other countries. Yes. So not just managing people who were living in other countries.
She had, she had, she had done that and, um, yes. And she created this map, as you say. And perhaps we can go into the details of, of, of the map. Um,
Jo: yes.
Phil: Later.
Jo: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
Phil: I, I think one of the, one of the reasons why I find the topic so interesting is that up until the age of 18, I. My home was never in the uk, it was always in another country.
So I had, uh, sort of lived my life from, uh, being, you know, from small islands in the middle of the Atlantic to the Mediterranean area, to the Yemen in, uh, in, you know, in the Middle East, uh, Trinidad, Sierra Leone, ma many different. Many different countries and each one of those countries had its own culture.
Jo: Mm-hmm.
Phil: And one had the sense that, so I'm just talking about personal experience here. One had the sense you were always a guest in someone else's country. You recognized. You know, you recognized both, um, physically and culturally how, you know, how, how, you know, how different they, they were. Um, but I think, I think, I think it meant that one was less judgmental about, about different.
Cultures, you know, because you are always appreciating. Mm-hmm. Well, suddenly this is, this is my sense of, you know, the first 18 years, 20 years of my life. You know, my sense was that you, you sort of appreciated different customs, different cultures, and so. Um, one didn't form such strong points of view, but I didn't systematically analyze the difference of culture in Sierra Leone to Yemen, to Bahrain.
You know, I didn't do that. So what I found really interesting about Mayor's map is the way that there are certain dimensions. Are being measured. Yes. And then mapping the nationalities against them.
Jo: Yes.
Phil: Uh, and, uh, so do you want to talk a bit more about, about, about what in particular, you know, do you want to talk about the map at all and to give us an idea of what sort of things she developed?
In the map?
Jo: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, what, what she developed was almost, she called it the eight scale model for, um, and, and mapped the different countries. So she did it do, did do it by country. And, um, the, the eight topics really were communication, evaluation, persuading, leading decisions, trusting, disagreeing, and um, and just as an example then.
On the, so that would be on the left hand side, on the right, right hand side it would be how, where that country was in terms of their communication, uh, in terms of what you call low context or high context. So as an example, if we go to the left hand side in terms of countries like France and Germany.
Netherlands as well. Generally, you'll have the, the points that are being communicated are the points that they want to get across to you. Where, if you go to the right hand side, if you're looking at, uh, countries, uh, like China and Japan for example, um, there will often be a due to the culture as subtext there.
So although words will be spoken to you in a meeting, there may also be another high, you know, other context that sits underneath that. Right. So it is about understanding that, and again, I think, you know, as you, as we, as you've done when you were very young, but as we all visit different countries, we all, we all begin to understand that.
But again, it's really making sure that you have that conscious, um, understanding in your head before you go into a meeting. Um, and I always use this example, if you, if you have a global meeting, and again, you've got that communication with, with some countries that will. Talk to you directly or also be very vocal, perhaps some countries, uh, it's, the culture is more respectful and, and they will only a ask a question if you ask, answer a question, sorry if you ask them.
So it's about making sure you can then have a, and I use this a European versus a Asia Pacific. If you're all on a call together, you could have a very one-sided meeting with quite honestly all of the Europeans having a voice.
Phil: Yeah.
Jo: And um. You know, people, people from the countries in the Asia Pacific may be quieter because in their culture it's about being asked questions and then answering them.
So as a leader, you've got to make sure you understand that different levels of communication. I'm not gonna go through all eight
Phil: No, that's really, that's a really good one.
Jo: The communication one really resonated with me. Yeah. And to make sure, as a leader, I would say to, you know, Phil, you know. You haven't given your opinion yet, or this question, perhaps you could gimme your thoughts on that to make sure people are in included.
Um, and realize people would not be sat there just because they are Yeah. Naturally, you know, have no input to the meeting. It's, it's just how they used to meetings being run. Um, it may be on a country only basis.
Phil: Yeah. No, I, I think it's, uh, on communication. It's really interesting. 'cause I think even when you sort of, even within Europe you have, there's sometimes quite big differences for, for example, I, you know, absolutely.
I remember sort of running a workshop in. In Finland, you know, so Finland's quite different to Sweden and Norway and Denmark, even though some people think it's, you know, it's all the same because, uh, um, but Finland sort of running a workshop and it was really difficult when you throw a question out to a group of people to get any one person to kind of respond.
And so I found that the, you know, they would be very quiet. And so I think, uh, they understand what I'm saying, you know? Mm-hmm. And, uh, the only way of really drawing them out was by asking them, like you said, more direct questions. So I guess that would be a bit like the, you know, Japan and China example.
Um, but what was interesting in the evening. The group was totally different, you know, in a social environ, totally mad, you know, sitting together in a sauna, you know, and, uh, you know, totally different. But, uh, and I've heard that, you know, I've, I've heard that, um, similar experience being shared by others who are also dealing with.
With people in Finland, you know, just the way of communicating is very different. Like you were saying earlier about the Netherlands, you know, different countries have different cultures and, and one needs to be kind of sensitive. When you were looking, uh uh, I mean, you may not have had a chance to process this, but if you're looking at all those eight dimensions of, I won't go to them all again.
Were there any ones where there was more of a convergence, would you say? Um, you know, where, where there were much closer connections, um, and I'm just, for example, you know, looking at, at, at the, some of the graphs you've shown in your, in your mm-hmm. Project and wondering whether leadership. You know, within the country, you know, leadership.
Yes. It's very hierarchical in China, Japan. Mm-hmm. But, um, when it comes to comparing, uh, France and Germany, they're, they're halfway to hierarchical. So the, the points on the chart maybe is slightly converging, but I mean, maybe, maybe it's not possible to. To say across those eight dimensions, there's some components which are more common across all the cultures than less common.
Mm. Yeah, maybe. Yeah.
Jo: Well, I definitely think, uh, leadership, so yes. You know, where you are saying more hierarchical, but actually one of the things I, I did find, and when I was, uh, interviewing, doing some of the interviews is that you people would naturally probably say hierarchical. Yes. To some cultures over the other and us is, is, you know, they're quite relaxed.
It's, it's much more of formal. Yeah. It's more of the triangle. Yeah. Actually, I found that it, it's quite hierarchical in the US so I think Okay. Even though, um, and that may just be the example of the company I was working for. 'cause it was us headquartered. So I I, you know, they were more similar when you were operating in a corporate company than you, than you think.
Right. Is, is what I would say. So they, they were. Probably closer together. There's certainly, I didn't find the different cultures and in the countries I, uh, interviewed that there was such a stark difference as maybe some of Right. The charts, uh, where the differences in the countries you see on the, on mayor's charts.
Phil: But for you, um, so as you were sort of studying mayor's model and thinking about your own experiences, then mm-hmm. Um. Could you just talk through where, where you started to make the connections between the model and your, your leadership approach?
Jo: Um, I think for me, so the, the two, and I, again, I've pulled them out in my dissertation.
We've just talked about communication. For me, the, the, the leadership approach that I saw, the, the two key themes were the communication and trust and Okay. That's what I, that's what I knew. I mean, communication is, is really a no brainer, right? When you're, when you are leading, but. The two things I, I pulled out that, that for me, uh, I knew I'd have to do my leadership was really understand how that communication works and then really understand how virtually I could build trust with teams.
So for me, they were the, they were the two points. And, um,
Phil: and what's, what sort of things did you begin to do in order to, to try and build trust and, and get the communication style right.
Jo: So in terms of, of communication, I think it's, um, or there's, there's a couple of ways in terms of communication.
You've either got a big group of people together. Yeah. So I think the example that I've given is you just make sure if, if you've got countries joining in that. You know, one, you know, one, uh, country is particularly vocal. Yeah. You just make sure you, you did
Phil: make sure you pull the others in. Yeah.
Jo: Pull the others in and say, you know, Phil, you tell me about this.
Uh, yeah. And, and make sure that you have that all inclusion. Uh, I think in one-to-ones it's, you know, there's that also that very formal versus informal approach Yes. Can also work very well. And again, um. For me, I found being more direct with my colleagues in the Netherlands and saying like, this is what we're doing today.
This is what we're gonna talk about upfront. 'cause if I reverse it back, what I used to do when I started as a leader was do all the nice things. If I'm, if you know, if you're having a difficult conversation or have a chat first, do you kind of try and build up to it? Very British thing to do, by the way.
For sure. In your culture. Yeah. Talk about it and then, then you get onto that. Let's talk about. You know, whatever the difficult topic is we're gonna discuss. Yeah, I, I would carry on actually doing that still with the UK team, that that was how I think they, they preferred that communication. But with, with the Netherlands team, the Dutch team, I'd say.
Right. Okay. We're talking about this today here and Al, I'd send an email out as well saying, here's the points we're gonna talk upfront, and you'd have that conversation and then potentially, obviously would also have the chat. About, you know, day to day and what else has been going on. So that was one thing on a one-to-one I quickly adapted with.
Um, okay. With communication. Yeah. Um, and, you know, trust is so intrinsically linked to that. Yeah. Because, uh, again, Maya's book will call out around. The difference between the task based trust and relationship based trust, and again, the differences, uh, in terms of how I, uh, build those relationships. You know, how, how do you do that?
Is it by doing the niceties, asking how, you know, mom, dad, sister is, yeah. And again, some countries, you know, the book, uh, the, uh, findings. Mayor brought out is very much, again, some cultures they don't, they don't want to do that. Come on, tell I'm working. Tell me what I'm doing. That's fine. As you talk about the, the sauna in the evening after work, fine.
Yeah, happy to talk about family life, what you're doing all day long, but very focused at work and you know, don't really wanna entertain that. So again, that's another adapt, you know, you, you just adapt to that and you make sure in terms of one-to-ones and leading that, you know, you, you. You adapt your leadership style to that person you're talking to.
Phil: Yeah, I remember,
Jo: yeah. Just one final thing actually. So I will say, so the, you do have to blanket this, 'cause there's obviously been a lot of studies across culture. There is always the element of personality. So of course if someone was I, it wasn't a hard and fast rule. Uh, you know, any, any of my colleagues or uh, team members, you know, if, if that was their personality and they loved to have a chat and I knew everything, you know, about their day-to-day life, that's what we did.
I didn't, there's no hard and rule.
Phil: Yeah. But obviously,
Jo: sorry I interrupted you there.
Phil: No, I was just going to say, I, I remember sort of earlier in my career, I was visiting a quite a large organization in, in Bahrain, I think it was in the Middle East, and walked into the general manager's office and I had my, you know, my, my briefcase, uh, with me.
And I was about to get out my notepad and, you know, prepare for the meeting. And I remember the general manager said, no, no, put your, just put your briefcase away. Yeah, just, just put everything away and he said, um, you've gotta understand how we work here in the Middle East. He said that if. If I don't like you,
uh, you know, it's all about relationships. he was saying, if I don't like you, if we don't get on, then doesn't matter what you've got in your shiny briefcase, basically, you know it's not gonna work.
And uh, and so of course we sat down, you know, on the carpet cross-legged, which I found difficult in it.
Own way. 'cause I'm not that bendier person, uh, drinking coffee and eating a few dates. But, um, you know, it was, it was such a, it was a, it's a, I should have known better actually. 'cause I had lived in the Middle East for quite a number of years. I should have known that sort of better in culture, you know, that, that exists.
Incredibly hospitable.
Jo: Mm-hmm.
Phil: And, uh, welcoming. And, uh, yeah, just say start. But I do, I, I do remember it sort of being called up on, on my approach. So, um, but that's what makes it, so, I think that's what makes life so interesting, isn't it? You know, the, the different. Cultures of working in global businesses.
Yeah. And that's probably what you love about what you do. I mean it,
Jo: yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And I, and I always, you know, I, I've been lucky that I started work at a global company from the age of, uh, twenties. So I was at the company for a very long time. Yeah. When I started, of course, it was a very country by country.
The world wasn't as global, uh, anywhere near as global as we are now. But I'd always been exposed to that. And what I love. And still love about the job now 'cause it's a global company, is you can talk to somebody different every day. You can hear their experiences every day. So it's, it's ama you know, it's amazing to have that opportunity.
To be able to talk to people from different countries and cultures every single day. It's, uh, it's what I love about doing the job.
Phil: Yeah. Yeah. Great. So, okay, so you studied mayor's model and then you went about your research. Mm-hmm. And could you just talk us through a little bit the kind of what you decided to do from a research perspective to try, you know, to try and sort of.
Drive more insights around the topic.
Jo: Yeah, so I, I mean, I quickly obviously identified, given, um, what I needed to do. It was my gap, so it was all about me. Um, so it was action research because I wanted to increase. My skillset and gap in knowledge around how to lead other cultures. So, um, obviously I had that whole, uh, action research methodology approach, and then made, uh, made sure that I could, you know, really go into all of the.
Um, reflections that I needed to undertake as an, an individual or that, obviously I've done all the reading. Um, and then I looked at, you know, what those methods would be. And again, it's very, it's, it's my skillset that I wanted to increase my gap. I wasn't going out and collecting, uh, hard and fast fact.
So, um, you know, for me it was, it was qualitative versus the quantitative. Yes. It wasn't numeric data. So really, I, you know, for me, the best way of looking and researching and, and understanding the topic further was, was to do the surveys and interviews. So, um, yeah, I put some surveys together to send out.
Again, I was fortunate enough. Um, I'd like to say at the time we were a company of 18,000, but sadly after COVID it was a company of 13,000. Yeah. However, I had a big call of people to choose from. Yes. So I could send out short surveys, uh, to be able to collect that data. But then I also undertook interviews with leader.
From around the world. Again, I was, I was in a very lucky position that I was in a global company. So, uh, I could interview and what I did actually was interview someone from each region, so someone from, uh, what we call NorAm North America, someone from latam, someone from apac, and someone from emea, which is Europe.
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that was, that was for me, the, and, and the interviews were actually semi-structured, so I had some questions, but of course, 'cause I knew the individuals, which was probably. The most challenging part because I had to be impartial. Yes. But I, I kept it in a semi-structured fashion to make sure you covered all Yeah.
That I could cover all the topics that I wanted to.
Phil: Were there any surprises at all or any, any insights you got in particular from the interviews that you didn't get perhaps from, uh, sort of ma reading, uh, mayor's work?
Jo: Um, I think it was that one when, with the leader of North America that I actually realized. And I still, you know, even doing further research, I, I do believe it.
It's not just 'cause I was working for a US headquartered company. It wasn't just the company I was working for, that actually it was much more hierarchical in the US than I had thought or some of the research that I had read had come out. Um, there was actually quite a, quite a line of, you know, this is the process we expect you to follow.
So I think that was, that was the one thing that really stood out for me.
Phil: Yeah. So I wonder if you, you reflect on the current, um, USA president at the moment and, uh mm-hmm. And say that perhaps that that amplifies the hierarchical approach. But I'm, I'm not going to make you make a political statement. I'm not gonna ask you to do that, but, uh,
Jo: no, that's fine.
I think, I think the comment is, uh. Is a, uh, valid comment
Phil: is a okay. Yeah. So interesting, isn't it? Okay. So, so that, yeah. That, that is surprising 'cause, um, but I, I guess, you know, if you start to compare America, say to Sweden, which is very consensus based, isn't it? Um, decision making in Sweden. Yes. Um, uh, you know, the default is, is, is more.
Yeah. As you say, hierarchic, hierarchical or authoritarian, perhaps A little bit, yes. Directive rather than con uh, consensus driven. Um, and that's part, maybe not just for leaders. I think it, you know, people have a can-do attitude. Mm-hmm. You know, perhaps in America. So they, they tend to self-direct as well.
It's not just a leadership phenomena. No. Uh, which, um, which is interesting, you should say that. Okay, so you, you did a series of interviews and you did a certain degree of thematic analysis, I think, and, and Yes. And from that, you started to identify, uh, sort of common themes. I wonder if you can just talk us through what, what those themes were that you began to.
You began to uncover. Um,
Jo: yeah. And you know, I've touched a couple on a couple of them, which were the two that resonated the most, which were communication and trust. And trust. And the other, the other two were experience and awareness.
Phil: Okay. So could you just talk us through experience and awareness a bit and what you mean by that?
Jo: Yes. So experience was, again, the, the. Biggest learning from doing the interviews. In the surveys were in, a couple of the questions were around, you know, how long you've been doing the job, how long have you worked globally? So I quickly understood that, you know, in terms of how much experience someone had, may also reflect on how culturally aware they were.
Phil: Okay.
Jo: Um, and the last, the one about a, it was making sure that, um. As a leader, you were always aware. Of when you were going into meetings or even just picking up the phone to somebody, how you actually, how you actually approached that call. So it was making sure, and that was, some of that came out in, in terms of the theming.
So I was putting, uh, coding the words together. So it was talking about things like body language and the nonverbal cues that you get and it's have, it was, having that awareness of them, um, seemed to be a key theme because. What I found and, and the experience links to it is if I think back to when I first started, uh, when I was 27, 28 and maybe would start having calls with people, I would come off calls and think, oh, I dunno what I've done wrong there.
Or is, you know, yeah, that person's body language, I dunno quite how to read that. Um, if, if it was a virtual call or even meeting someone in, in person. And what I found obviously is. The more experience someone had working in a global organization, the more, um, you know, the more culturally aware that they became.
Phil: Yeah. So when, when you were doing the interviews, were you asking the, uh, interviewees questions about their appreciation of cultural difference or, or the challenges that they faced? Was that the anger?
Jo: It was both actually. Yeah. So in terms of the semi i'd, I'd say I'd ask them about both, in fact. Okay.
Yeah. So their experience of the, their, you know, what they had done may be, and also what, you know, how they, um, had overcome any challenges as well that they'd had. Yes. Because I think, and some of that could present itself in conflict. Right. You know, quite honestly, you could have calls where there would be conflict.
Phil: Yeah. I like the way you, you sort of asked them to come up with examples, I think, of things that they've experienced, I guess in, mm-hmm. In, in their role as leaders that had, uh, gone well and perhaps not gone so well. Yeah. And, and use that extrapolate from that sort of mm-hmm. Um. Ideas that you've got. So, coming, coming back, sorry.
The, the, the second two points, uh, of the, the thematic analysis were experience. Mm-hmm. So that was, was that the extent to which experience is, uh, a big influencer of how well you can. Uh, communicate with people across different cultures? Or was it more to do with the respect, you know, the respect, you know, people respecting you because you've got 20 years experience in the travel industry, so no matter which culture you are working in, you would've, um, as a leader, sort of earned.
The res, you know, a certain degree of respect? The respect?
Jo: No, it was actually when, when I did the themes and the coding, it was pulling out the, there was a significant number of negative words, which were around emotions and feelings around their own experiences. So. Got it in turn, they then said that it provided them the experience and awareness to be able to lead more effectively.
So it, it was more around when something had not gone well. So I would always say a meeting, if a meeting had got not gone well, IE we've talked about body language tone, how they then took that as a learning and it gave them as an individual the experience and awareness. I mean, you could also say there is of.
Naturally, if you created that trust and had that communication, you'll also have that respect through 'cause you're more experienced. But no, this was, yes, definitely around the experience that they'd, that
Phil: had, that wasn't,
Jo: that wasn't.
Phil: Necessarily It's a negative emotion. Yeah. Yes. Okay.
Jo: Yeah. And it was linked to, so a lot of the, the, uh, conversations around leading across, uh, different cultures, it was linked to emotions and feelings.
You know, there was a lot of, because if it'd been a bad experience, someone naturally remembered, oh gosh, I remember this meeting when. X, Y, Z happened. Yeah. And then obviously they'd stood back and had a reflection and thought, oh, maybe I could have done something differently that didn't go well. And for next time I've got that awareness going in to what I need to do.
Phil: Right.
Jo: But of course we'd all, all of us have just learned by having the negative experiences. I think that's what the biggest learning as well for me, doing the dissertation and the interviews we'd all learn not, um, by how I wanted to, I know we're gonna probably get onto that, but how I wanted to take it forward in the business, we'd learn by going, oh, that was awful, and gosh, have I upset someone?
Or What have I done? But you learn, of course, on the job, but. Actually what, what the biggest, um, enlightenment for me doing this is actually we can, not everyone needs to go through this. We can almost equip them. Yeah. We can equip them with a framework to say, these are the things you need to think about as you go into lead.
Um, it's almost, you know, it's really the, uh, why also the, the fantastic MBA and sales leadership exists. 'cause it's the same thing, right? You start leading in sales and you have these yes, awful experiences and actually you don't need to. Because there's a fantastic education that you can do to really equip people.
I just, uh, yeah. Yeah. I can't, it should be there for everyone, in my opinion. Yeah. For sales leaders.
Phil: Uh, well, I, of course I would, uh, I would agree with that. Um, but you very neatly take us on to, um, the question of the. So, you know, so the so what of your project, which is, yeah, you did this research, you had a lot of, in, you know, personal reflection, got thoughts from others, and outta that, uh, you started to recommend more structured frameworks for people to understand mm-hmm.
How they can manage perhaps more effectively across different cultures. So, how, you know, could you tell me about that part of your experience and, uh. Yeah. What sort of support did you have for the ideas that you were developing and, yeah.
Jo: So after I'd completed my MBA, I presented it to my global sales leader.
So actually no, two of my leaders, so my European sales leader who had obviously supported me throughout the whole of the MBA. Yeah, yeah. Um, and my global sales leader who knew obviously that I was doing it. He was in the US so they, they don't get into the day-to-day. So, um, yeah, I, once I presented it to them, not the whole thing in its entirety, yes.
But the overview and, and my learnings and the fact that I said, you know, as people come into leadership roles, or even for us today as a leadership team, I think we could build a great framework. Could become part of our, um, sales have, obviously, most organizations have what they call a sales playbook.
Yeah. We could have and carve out a section in that to, to, you know, give people the tips or if they wanted them particular, uh, deep dive and, and mentoring or support on it. I could provide that. Yeah. Um, and yeah, they were absolutely, 'cause it's, you know, for them it wasn't, there was no, um, particular budget involved.
And know, again, in my dissertation, I do carve and talk about a little bit, could we get the budget in terms of who needs to redo the playbook, which was challenging 'cause we'd had COVID, but it wasn't a great stretch for them to, to do, you know, it was, it was a no brainer to say, yeah, absolutely. Anything that could benefit our.
Key learnings and, and yeah. So then in fact, I did have calls with the leadership team. So we talked through it. We talked about, I talked about the, uh, Mayo model. So I talked through that. I talked about my findings and um, then did in fact towards the end, uh, put something, we never made it to the playbook, sadly.
'cause I left the organization. You left the organization then? Yes. Yeah. Go on. Um, however, certainly intend to do it in this organization, right? In terms of, um, you know, as 'cause. I'm really in a good pos, a lucky position here. Good position. Lucky. Yes. This is a smaller organization I'm in and they are just growing globally.
Right. So they're almost in the same position that my previous organization was 10, 15 years ago. Yeah. Where actually, what a great opportunity. So there is no sales playbook. We want to put one in place. We've got sales enablement. We can do it now. You can make it part, part of it now, which is great.
Phil: Yeah, amazing.
Having the opportunity to, you know, start at, um, ground zero in a way as if nothing has been developed so far. Yeah. And, and sort of pull together all your, your different experiences and you said you felt that your, your, your. Dissertation journey actually sort of enabled you to get the job? Is that, you know, were they, did it come up in, in the interview, I guess?
Jo: Yeah, it did twice. It twice because it had to be interviewed by a lot of people actually, maybe three times. So I was, uh, obviously when you go for Leadership Rail, you are interviewed by so well, uh, yeah, obviously my, my leader now who's, who's on the board then head of HR and the, the CEO. So yeah, all of them.
I cited the fact that. You know, the question is always why, you know, why do you think you are best for the job? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell us what you've done and obviously aside from my actual on the job experience at the previous company. Yeah. Uh, I also talked about the fact that I'd gone through this journey and the MBA and actually my final dissertation was around Wow.
Uh. Around leading how to effectively lead across, across different cultures. So yeah, I do absolutely believe that's amazing. It was a, a big factor and a contributor towards, towards getting my role.
Phil: Oh, fantastic. That's, uh, that's absolutely brilliant. Um, if there are any sort of key takeaways that, that, that you would, you know, for the listeners have mm-hmm.
You know, based on your experiences of looking into cross-cultural communication, what, what would the key takeaways be?
Jo: So, I think in terms of. When you are looking at if, and it doesn't have to obviously be necessarily leading a sales team. Being part of a sales team is the, is, you know, just as important to have that cultural awareness and Yeah.
And how you develop your skillset. Uh, it's always to lead with your own gut feeling. And you know, there's a lot of work I know we do in the. Um, masters around emotional intelligence as well. That's a big contributing factor towards that cultural, cultural awareness. Uh, so yeah, I think the two takeaways for me are always, it's that, that.
Stopping and thinking that awareness part of it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but then als always go with, you know, that terms of being culturally aware, uh, always go with how you feel. You don't change your person because of it. It's just having that kind of stop. For a moment before you go in to pause to meetings to think, okay, who have I got in the room?
Um, and taking that, that step back. So my two takeaways now are always, I, I probably used to, with sales, obviously, you know, everything's always a million miles an hour. Yeah. I always take that moment now to sit and look, okay, I'm going into a meeting. What am I doing? I'm going on a call. What do I need to think about differently?
Is there anything I need to think about differently? Yes. Before you go in that, that's the biggest takeaway. Yeah. For me.
Phil: Yeah. And that's reflective practice, isn't it? It's one of the things that we talk about on
Jo: Yes.
Phil: In module one. And you're probably wondering, what on earth are we talking about reflective practice for?
You know, it's, uh, it's always amazing to see students go through the journey and, and seeing how they begin to look at the world in a slightly different place, you know? Yes. It's, uh, which, which has obviously happened with you, but, uh, no, I think you've been a great exemplar of. You know, of someone who's really embraced, you know, that particular approach and, and, uh, sort of seen it through what was a very difficult time.
You know, we, yeah, we, um, we feel. Um, well, we're grateful and amazed at those students who happened to do their dissertations during the pandemic because, you know, they didn't get much chance to even see each other. You know, I, no,
Jo: yeah, that's true. We had, we had the one get together. Yeah. Had the one get together.
But, you know, it, on the flip side of that, it was also, I, I've said many times, you know, it was something positive and something. To look forward to. Yeah. It was an amazing anchor in times of great unknowns. Yeah. And having to, you know, by, you know, having to have worked possibly, I still believe the, you know, the, the, the most badly affected sector.
Yeah. It's, yeah. That you could have been, you know, that it couldn't have been a more perfect storm in that respect in terms of Yeah, yeah. You know, what happened, but it was that anchor and, yeah. Yeah. Just. A really good chance as well in it to learn that new skills that you, that you didn't even think. You either potentially needed.
Yeah. Or were possible. Yeah. You also don't think you're possible of doing it until you, you embark on the journey either. Yeah. It's, uh, it really is. It is such an incredible experience to go through. Yeah.
Phil: Can I ask a slightly sort of curve ball question? It's not too difficult, but, um, you talked about remote and remote working.
Probably what the pandemic did was sort of triggered. People doing much more sort of zoom related calls and so on. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, do you have any thought, and, but you also talked about the importance of one-on-one communication. Mm-hmm. You know, and, and, and, and, and meeting people in person. Yes.
Rather than meeting people remotely. Are you still a great advocate of that even though it's, it's still very much a sort of rever communication is. More often than not removed unless it's different in Yes. In your experience.
Jo: I know it is. I mean, that's, that is the challenge with my role. I've obviously, I do visit the countries that I look after in Europe.
Yeah. But you can't be there all the time. Yeah. Uh, however, I do you have to have that mix, so. Right. You have to, I mean, I stay in touch. So from a one-to-one basis, obviously they happen. Virtually. Yeah. It's having them on a, that regular basis to make sure you are, you have those touchpoint. But yeah, since the, the organization I'm now at is they are a, a big advocate of being office based.
So I'm now in London a lot more and actually. It is, I've really seen how much, uh, you, the differences that you can, uh, communicate and connect with people. Um, and also how easy it is to build that trust and relationship because obviously me coming into a new organization regardless of culture Yeah. I had to build that trust.
Yeah. And I've seen that It's just. How you can do it through being in person versus virtually. Yeah, you're right. And we, but we are still seeing in the sales world, unfortunately, we are still doing a lot of virtual meetings for the first or second time. Virtually Okay. But we are still seeing, you know, we always say, let's do it face to face.
I still see that sales, this is why it's so important selling. If you can get together in person. And this is why we're still traveling because you ha with different cultures. You have to be there. You have to be in there in person. because it is all of that. And again, I know, I think my dissertation talks about it's all of that nonverbal or that, uh, relationship based communication that might happen outside of the boardroom.
It's so important. It's so important to A, build the team and then B, that team needs to do that. You're doing it so they feel motivated to go out and also belong to the company and sell for the company.
Phil: A hundred percent. Yeah. With you on that. Great. Well, I think that brings us to the end. Jo, thank you so much for taking part.
Thank you. I, I hope it wasn't too challenging having to go back two or three years to
Jo: No.
Phil: Your research.
Jo: Yeah. I really enjoyed rereading my dissertation, actually thinking, oh my God, I can't believe I wrote all. That That's right. So, uh, yeah, actually felt a little bit proud of myself. Yeah, you should. I've done it.
You do. When you go, when you look back. 'cause at the time it feels like, oh my gosh. Yeah. I'm still writing, reading, researching. Yes. And, uh, yeah, it's a real nice sense of achievement when you reread it actually.
Phil: Oh, that's fantastic. Well, thank you so much.
,